Sunday, November 11, 2012

Arguing God with atheists

"What a fool believes no wise man has the power to reason away."

Arguing God with atheists is something I like to do - a lot. Both in person and over the Internet. It's fun and I've learned some things along the way: atheists come in different flavors.  Not all of them are overt God haters.  Not all of them are overtly anti-religion.  Some are rabid leftists.  Some are rabid anti-leftists. Some are quite intelligent.  Some are very stupid. Some of them are somewhat likable... All of them are fools.

Never forget this: however many degrees they may or may not have, or say they have, when arguing God with an atheist, you're dealing with a fool.  So, don't be a fool yourself.  You and the atheist are not on the same level.  While you may not be on a pedestal, he is definitely in a ditch.

When debating with an atheist, until there are compelling reasons otherwise, treat him as an individual.

Always let the atheist get nasty first - though you don't have to get nasty. When he does get insulting, then you're allowed to respond in kind. The choice is yours. It's been my experience that they usually do get nasty - and pretty fast. Most of them ARE bitter, nasty human beings. This is helpful though, because it means your atheist is emoting rather than thinking. Like a boxer who starts losing his cool in the ring, they become easier to beat when they get mad.

AVOID CITING THE BIBLE! Atheists reject the Bible out of hand and there is no common ground there for you and the atheist to come to terms. They see the Bible (or the Koran, as they dislike Muslims too) as only a book of mad fairy tales for gullible children. Your problem is that it IS a book. Books can't be questioned. But even if you were to open a Bible and it started talking to them, they'd still find some reason to reject it. It's foolish to appeal to religion when arguing with an atheist. You must find other ways of beating him.

However the argument may develop, you should maneuver the atheist into philosophy. At its core atheism is a futile, irrational and "anti-religious religious system". It IS a cult - much as atheists resent that definition.  Philosophy is a mental martial art that, when used correctly, can send the atheist crashing to the floor - judo like. This takes some experience as it involves setting them up, getting them to commit to a position, then using the momentum of their own reasoning to spring your trap on them.

At its core, atheism is a logical fallacy called, "denying the consequent".  Denying the consequent proceeds thus:  A. "If God exists then I would see Him." B. "I do not see Him."  C. "Therefore, God does not exist." This isn't to say that many religious people don't embrace philosophical fallacies too, but ALL atheists do. Atheists like to posture as paragons of reason and intellect.  The truth is quite the opposite: on the matter of God at least, they think illogically and often childishly.

Atheists also resort to a myriad of other logical ruses: tautologies, guilt by association,the  masked man fallacy, the ad hominem fallacy, the genetic fallacy, the argumentum ad ignorantiam, the fallacy of the undistributed middle, circular reasoning, begging the question, argumentum ad verbosum, straw man arguments, proof by assertion, false appeal to authority, lying.... 

They also like to confuse "evidence" (of something that supports *their* pov) with "proof". At the same time they will deny any evidence *you* bring to the table. They'll always demand that you need more evidence to "prove" your case.   If you cite a book about a great miracle in Portugal, they will say the book is a pious fraud. If you bring pictures or video of the miracle to their attention, they will say, "they were doctored".  And if they should see the miracle with their own two eyes they'll say, "it was an optical illusion."  There isn't enough evidence in the known universe to convince such people.

Atheists often resort to denigrating the theist (you?) as some sort of intellectual dwarf compared to themselves. They *love* to think of themselves as intellectuals. Religious people on the other hand, and especially Christians, they deride as mental midgets.  Don't be surprised if they start saying how unintelligent you are. They usually do. The more benign atheists may not overtly say that, but often will imply it. You are a childish fairy tale believer who imagines there's an invisible "sky daddy"... and is sooo unworthy of their valuable time (but they'll still spend *a lot* of time responding to you).

I mentioned "springing the trap" on them. This is very important and there are a number of ways of doing it: dangle leading questions, in the hope the atheist will bite, and get it wrong. When they do jump on it - then pound them with it.  If they come back just keep pounding them with it - while mocking their "jeenyus". Once you're able to do this they usually vamoose. Another way is to catch them in a grammatical error. For some reason this really infuriates them. If they say "your" when "you're" is called for, you can mock them for it, (because they all believe themselves highly intelligent) and they soon and angrily slam the door on their way out.

I always like to ask them,"can you prove there is no God?"  Of course they can't - and it makes them angry to be forced into that corner. They'll reply, "No... it's up to you to prove there IS a God!"  In fact, I can't recall one who's frankly admitted they can't prove there isn't a God. They'd rather be burned at the stake.  Anyway, this flies in the face of accepted science and historical revisionism: those who contradict the accepted story are the ones who must supply their proof/evidence refuting it.

Furthermore, saying "There IS NO God!" is a declarative statement - no less than saying, "there IS a God!" Declarative statements demand back-up.  The atheist simply tries to win by default, thinking, "If theists cannot prove their case then I win and there is no God who'll condemn me to hell."

Basically, the atheist is a spoiled child rebelling against a, "'sky daddy' that doesn't exist" - but whom he hates anyway.



  1. Most of this post is a straw man fallacy. I don't know an atheist as you describe. They all believe there is no God, but they acknowledge that this is just a belief and not a statement of knowledge. Their arguments show God is unlikely, not impossible. Although atheists can also show that the biblical God specifically is impossible.

  2. I'll say this politely: you speak with a forked tongue.

    1. I'll say this as bluntly as possible: Faith is irrelevant to reality, especially your own, Fitz. That's why it's called, "faith", and not, "fact."

      The longer you remain pious, the longer you remain a burden to both the betterment and the survival of your own species, including yourself.

  3. You've mixed up "denying the consequent" with "denying the antecedent". Denying the consequent is valid logic, while denying the antecedent is a fallacy. So, by saying that "denying the consequent" is at the core of atheism, you're saying that atheism is logically valid. That doesn't mean it's true, of course. What it does mean, though, is that if you don't like the conclusion, you must deny the premise. That is, you must deny

    A. "If God exists then I would see Him."

    because the form of the argument that proceeds from that premise is perfectly good.

    I'll note that you undermine your own argument in this example:

    I always like to ask them,"can you prove there is no God?" Of course they can't - and it makes them angry to be forced into that corner. They'll reply, "No... it's up to you to prove there IS a God!" In fact, I can't recall one who's frankly admitted they can't prove there isn't a God.

    If the first word in the atheist's reply is "No", how can you say you've never heard one admit they can't prove there's no God? It sounds like you've heard them *all* admit it.

  4. Declarative statement. "You're dealing with a fool." You are calling me a fool without having been properly introduced. I would like for you to show me proof that I am a fool.
    "They hate God!" I do not hate God in the same way that I do not hate unicorns or fairies. I cannot hate that which I do not believe in.
    "They hate Christians and Muslims," Another declarative statement. I do not hate Christians or Muslims or anyone that adheres to a religious belief. I have many family members and friends in my life that are Christians. I simply don't agree that there is compelling evidence to believe what they believe.
    "Your problem is that it IS a book!" (the Bible) So books are not allowed to be questioned? By the same standards then, Stephen King's book IT is true. How about Jonathan Swift's book Gulliver's Travels? Everything in life should be questioned, even holy texts.
    "Not enough evidence in the known universe to convince such people." If you show me peer reviewed studies that have tested the same miracle several times, getting the same results multiple times all accounting for variants etc. I will very much become a believer. I need empirical evidence.
    I consider no Christians, Muslims, Buddhist etc. etc. mental midgets. This is yet another declarative statement. There may be those who believe they are superior to those who practice a religious belief, but I am not one of them. So therefore this statement is false, not all atheists think in such a manner.
    You believe that I am calling believers names. Yet another declarative statement. Please, prove that I call believers names. Please, cite specific situations.
    Atheists get unjustifiably mad when our grammatical errors are pointed out. No, please do correct me, this is how I learn. I appreciate corrections being given.
    "Can you show evidence of there being no God?" Please check out a book by Victor Stenger called: God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist. It's rather interesting. He gives some pretty compelling rebuttals against the God hypothesis, all using scientific methods of experimenting the claims.
    I am simply the type of person that requires evidence. I do not consider that to be a character flaw as you have alluded to. I prefer peer reviewed studies showing empirical evidence. Studies that have been made several times, all reaching the same result, again, with variables weeded out. Should you find some of these studies and would like to bring them to the table to be investigated, that would be a very interesting discussion.
    I very much enjoyed your post. It made me think, I like that. It's always interesting hearing how some believers think. It helps me mold my own world view. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    1. St Thomas Aquinas, to whom by comparison, Victor Stenger is an intellectual midget, has given some pretty compelling arguments for God's existence.
      How does Stenger address the age-old conundrum for atheists about the impossibility of something coming from nothing.
      This is a personal issue , I know; but Stenger, who is Jewish, is merely taking the line of a series of revolutionary Jews: Reich, Marx, Adorono Freud, etc, whose stated aim is the destruction of Christian society. For that reason, I have a healthy distrust of anything coming from a Jewish source.

    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

    3. I've no wish to attribute an unintended interpretation to Fitz's words, but I when he opines that atheists hate Christians and Muslims, he is speaking generally and from personal experience which is no way intended to deny that there are atheists who strive to maintain rational and cordial dialogue when debating a theist.
      Below is an example from the Hitchens thread of the sort of foul-mouthed abuse which theists, especially Christians, are subjected to on a regular basis from, usually young, usually male and always stupid and ignorant, atheists:

      He had balls bigger than your brains,you are so fucking ignorants,you will die to,the difference is that you all wasted your life worshipping a cave man.
      Please use condoms,we don't need other stupid fucks in this world.

      Believe me; that's a milder example too!

    4. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, they're all cancers that need to be removed from society and kept in museums, where they belong: with the rest of humanities creations.

      Believe me, each of you are wrong, anyway!

    5. "Below is an example from the Hitchens thread of the sort of foul-mouthed abuse which theists, especially Christians, are subjected to on a regular basis from, usually young, usually male and always stupid and ignorant, atheists:

      He had balls bigger than your brains,you are so fucking ignorants,you will die to,the difference is that you all wasted your life worshipping a cave man.
      Please use condoms,we don't need other stupid fucks in this world."

      "Usually young, usually male, and always stupid and ignorant atheists..." So, does that make you a sexist old-cunt? Just curious, because the insult game is my specialty and you're failing, miserably.

      Go ahead and prove for me that everything he said isn't wrong, by the way. Because I know you can't.

      As Christopher Hitchens would put it: If someone tells me, "I've hurt their feelings", I'm still waiting to hear what your point is. Also, "The fact that some people believe in god proves that humans are capable of hallucinating without being under the influence of psychedelic drugs" and "It's called FAITH because it's NOT KNOWLEDGE". There's some more truth for you, that you can't handle, anyway.

    6. where did I state that my feelings were hurt? You are guilty of the straw man fallacy here, as was Hitchens.

      Obviously it is your feelings that have been hurt because we have not shown the deference to your idol that you deem is his due.

    7. When you have to go as far as to say something like, "Below is an example from the Hitchens thread of the sort of foul-mouthed abuse which theists, especially Christians, are subjected to on a regular basis from, usually young, usually male and always stupid and ignorant, atheists...", you're showing how much of a Social Justice Cuck you really are. How does it feel, MaryC, to know that the smartest people in the world are atheist white men? That's got to sting.

      If we can't criticize the stupidity, the ignorance, and the immorality of religion then we wouldn't be able to criticize anything. If the Abrahamic god certainly gave a damn, he would have prevented them from speaking, himself. Seeing as he doesn't exist, it's impossible for him to have an opinion on the matter. Otherwise, this conversation, like so many others throughout history, wouldn't take place.

      If you wish to defy the legacy made by the "Four Horsemen of the anti-Apocalypse" and many other atheists, then I have this challenge for you that no pious clown has ever done before: Provide proof for the existence of the Abrahamic god; since he can't do so himself. Prove that the Earth is 5777 years old, since he can't. Prove that he made a woman out of a dirt-man's rib, since he can't. Prove that newborn children having their genitalia mutilated is a good idea, since he can't. Prove that heresy is a real crime, since he can't. Prove that Jesus was his son, since he can't nor won't. Prove that any of the pseudoscientific claims within religious dogma are true and then you may feel superior. Until then, all you've done is proven that Christopher Hitchens had bigger balls than you do brains and that you'll die wasting your life worshipping a cave-man who never existed, just like his "father".

    8. "How does it feel, MaryC, to know that the smartest people in the world are atheist white men? That's got to sting."

      If you want to know how I feel, I feel that if you're an example of a typical smart, atheist white man I am justified in feeling quietly smug. You only further demonstrate your weakness of intellect by repeating your childish inanity re: Hitchen's balls.

    9. "I feel that you're an example of a typical smart, atheist white man..."

      Thank you.

    10. All you're doing, MaryC, is proving that Christopher Hitchens is right. "You're a fascist crackpot" and "I will not buy a pencil from your cup".

    11. Smacked down by a woman.... No wonder you wish to be "Unknown".

    12. You took nearly three years to respond and that’s the best you could muster?

      Are you retarded?

    13. If you want to prove your god exists and will protect you, go out in the middle of a riot in Portland and announce that you’re a straight, white Christian male who’s voting for Donald J. Trump and see if your god, alone, will defend you.

      You and I both know your chances of survival are as nonexistent as your imaginary friend.

      Which is more likely to defend you: a god or a gun?

      There’s a reason why people who claim they’re talking to god go into a psych ward, stupid.

      There are no gods.

      Get used to it.

  5. If there were ever any existing god in the universe, especially one as mythical as the Abrahamic god, we would never be consistently able to ponder it's existence, in the first place. No one would ever have to make the argument for an entity that supposedly has the ability to do so on their own.

    If you want to prove to the masses that your god exists, let your god do the proving for you.

    Go ahead! You'll prove something to yourself, too.

  6. Always remember, children: Your faith is irrelevant to reality.

  7. You’re entitled to your own opinion, Citizenfitz, but you’re not entitled to your own facts.

    Go out onto the front lines, look throughout history, and watch as your fellow pious Protestant Christian, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Scientologist, Buddhist, Jain, Hindi, Pagan, Satanist, etc. are slaughtered, gutted and tortured just as indiscriminately as the agnostics and atheists alike.

    There’s no tooth fairy, there’s no Sandman, there’s no Santa Clause, there’s no monster under the bed, there’s no Man in the Moon, there’s no Sasquatch, there are no mermaids, no giants, no elves, no trolls, no witches, no mages, no magic, no dragons, no monsters, no demons, no angels, no gods, no devils, no heaven, and no hell.

    There is life, there’a what you make of it, there is death and the legacy you leave behind.

    There’s only one life, Citizenfritz, make the most of it. The people around you, the people you love who love you in return, they are who matter. Not a god invented by some twat in the middle of the desert some three thousand years ago who said the world is six thousand years old and was created in just six days. Who then invents lies and engages in disinformation that last generations, indoctrinating the youth and engaging in child rape, sending the able-bodied men to fight in wars under false promises and exaggerated claims. Brainwashed.

    Sounds an awful lot like what the commies have been doing, too.

    If you want to see how bad religion is for humanity, watch how bad it gets for the people who live under dogmatic Marxism. When politics becomes a religion, it’s not just dangerous, it emphasizes what happens when the religious become radical zealots and how it has historically, and today, been a bane on humanity’s existence.

    There is no difference between the mass graves filled with the bodies of those murdered for religious reasons and those filled with the bodies of those murdered for political reasons. And no god is ever around to stop it from happening.

    Just as no god ever stops the rape and murder of women and children at the hands of the religious and otherwise. Just as no god ever stops a single war, disease, famine, riots, murders, wildfires, or even Hollywood. Just as no god ever steps in when even their own religion is taking things too far or breaking their own rules.

    Because there are no gods. We made them too, grow up and get fucking used to it.

    1. That’s Mister God Emperor Trump!

    2. My question is Why? People have learned to live with God, and Gods as their goal to a better life. It’s when we take it too far and say Batman is the best super hero! No! Batman is the only super hero! Their are no super hero’s before Batman! That is when I get lost. The T.V. show of course.